May 26, 2022

A Sansori Experience


The guys sit down with Fiona Hepher of Sansorium to dive into the world of alcohol-free beverages. Fiona shares her path to an alcohol-free lifestyle and what led her to start Sansorium. We also sample a delicious lineup of alcohol-free beers from UK’s Nirvana Brewery and chat about drinking culture, the stigmas around NA beverages, wine moms, and more.

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Transcript
Aaron: Episode  14  of  The  Dregs.  We  are  back  again  and  we  have  another  guest,  guys.  We  are  doing  the  book  tour  circuits  now  for  everybody,  we're  just  getting  guest  requests  coming  in  left  and  right.  We're  growing,  we're  growing  as  a  podcast  big  time.

Chris: What  a  novel  idea. 

Luke: What,  guests? 

Chris: I was trying to  make  a  book  pun  didn't  land  (inaudible)   boys  and  girls. 

Aaron: Well,  we  should  just  get  into  that.  So  the  guy  there  with  the  terrible  joke,  that's  Chris  from  Fan  Pores.  And  the  other  voice  you  heard  is  Luke.

Chris: That  was Luke. 

Aaron: And the-

Luke: Hello.  

Aaron: Now  the  bad  joke  was  Chris,  come  on.  You  got  to  own  that  buddy.  And  then  myself,  Aaron  for  the  Cascading  Beer  podcast  and  our  guest  today  is  Fiona  Hepher.  Hello?

Fiona: Hello.

Aaron: So  we've  known  each  other  a  while  and  I  was  actually  thinking  about  this  the  other  day  and  we'll  kind  of  get  into  the  reasons  why  for  this  more,  but  you  and  I  have  never  actually  had  a  drink  together  because  when  I  first  met  you  were  pregnant.  And  then  now  you  run  a  company  which  doesn't  have  alcohol.  And  so,  yeah,  we've  just  never  had  a  drink  together  the  entire  time  we've  known  each  other.

Fiona: That's  if  you  define  a  drink  as  only  an  alcoholic  one.

Luke: Well,  we  will  get  into  that. 

Aaron: Ooh.  Yeah. 

Luke: Although  there  was  that  one  time  we  went  to  that  cocktail  lounge  with  one  of  your  coworkers  and  we  had  drinks  and you  just  looked  envious  at  us  because...

Fiona: Because  they  didn't  have  any  good  alcoholic  cocktails  back  then.

Luke: Yeah.  Back  then. 

Fiona: The times  are  changing. 

Luke: Yes.

Fiona: That's  why  I  exist. 

Aaron: So  your  company's  called  Sansorium.  When  did  you  start?

Fiona: So  we  launched  last  September.  The  idea  of  it  kind  of  came  up  January  of  2021  though,  by  my  mom.

Aaron: Right.  What  was  the  reason  behind  your  mom  wanting  to  start  this  company?

Fiona: So  two  years  ago,  right  before  the  pandemic  started,  my  mom  decided  to  stop  drinking  alcohol.  She  decided  to  live  an  alcohol  free  life,  which  came  from  a  bunch  of  personal  discovery  around  what  makes  her  body  feel  good  and  what  makes  her  brain  feel  good.  But  really  it  was  William  Porter's  book  that  kind  of  dove  into  the  effects  on  the  brain  and  sleep  in  particular.  And  she  did  not  have,  she  just  didn't  realize  before  that  there  was  any  correlation  between  how  much  alcohol  she  was  drinking  and  the  neuro  effects  and  the  sleep  effects  that  she  was  experiencing,  that  she  didn't  realize there was  a  correlation.  So,  once  she  learned  that  she  said  she  could  never  go  back  to  drinking  alcohol.  She  literally  stopped  overnight.  And  she  comes  from  a  long  lineage  of  drinking  alcohol.  She's  Scottish.  (inaudible)   her  family  or  they  don't  drink.

Aaron: (inaudible)   when  you  have  an  entire  whiskey  named  after  your  country,  it's  just  like,  yeah,  that's  deep  rooted,  right?

Fiona: It's  deep  rooted.  Yeah.  And  she  grew  up  in  a  culture  where  drinking  alcohol  was...  And  a  lot  of  it,  too,  as  much  as  you  wanted,  there  was  no  limits.  It  was  normal,  super  normal  to  have  a  glass,  two,  three,  four  after  work  every  day  of  wine.  You  could  finish  a  bottle  by  yourself.  No  problem.  It  didn't  really  have  a  big  effect  on  her,  from  what  she  could  notice.  It  was  really  later  that  she  discovered  all  of  these  physical  effects  that  she  thought  maybe  were  to  do  with  other  things.  And that  it  was  actually  the  alcohol.  So  once  she  cut  it,  she  realized  that  her  metabolism  was  actually  way  better  and  she  could  control  her  weight  a  lot  easier.  She  was  sleeping  amazing.  She  was  feeling  clearheaded.  And  then  there's  been  this  kind  of  cascade  of  really  beautiful  relational  effects  in  our  family  and  in  our  lives  that  have  just  strengthened  her  desire  to  stay  alcohol  free.

Aaron: Right.  And  when  you  say  like  relationships  and  that,  would  you  have  considered  your  mom  a  wine  mom?

Fiona: Yeah.  We've  talked  a  lot  about  that.  And  I  grew  up  in  wine  mom  culture  that  kind  of  started  being  more  publicized  through  social  media.  I  was  kind  of  like  the  mom  who  was  really  proud  of  her  wine  intake  to  get  away  from  the  needs  of  the  family  or  the  needs  of  the  day  to  day  responsibility  of  work  and  raising  kids.  And  it  was  very,  it  was  like  meme- ified  wine  mom  culture.  We're  coming  out  of  that  now,  I  would  say,  as  a  global  community,  but  certainly  in  the  west  of  what  it  means  to  still  imbibe  on  wine  and  have  a  family  and  raise  a  family  and  have  children  in  the  background.  But  my  mom  was  like,  we've  had  a  big  conversation  about  that  recently  of  what  it  means,  what  it  meant  to  me  to  have  a  wine  mom.

Luke: Sorry.  Can  we  clear...  I  don't  think  I've  ever  heard  that  term  wine  mom.

Fiona: Yeah.  It's  such  a  big  conversation  and  I  want  to  do  it  justice.  But  generally  it's  the  celebration  of  moms  drinking  wine  to  reward  themselves  for  their  end  of  the  day.  Like  getting  the  kids  to  bed,  having  a  tough  day  with  lots  of  tantrums,  or  diffusing  an  argument  in  the  back  of  the  car  or  something  on  a  road  trip.  It's  like  drinking  wine  to  celebrate  being  a  mom.  But  the  reason  why  it's  being  challenged  now  or  seen  as  problematic  is  it's  looking  like  a  form  of  escaping  your  responsibilities  as  a  mother,  and  potentially  over  drinking  because  of  it.  So  you'll  see  these  big,  huge  glasses  that  would  encourage  you  to  pour  bottles  of  wine  into  them.  And  they  kind  of,  I  say  it's  meme- ified, because  they  make  jokes  about  how  much  they're  drinking.  There's  whole  brands  of  wine  created  for  wine  mom  culture.

Luke: Yeah.  I  think  now  that  you  explain  it,  I've  definitely  witnessed  this  in  social  media  and-

Fiona: Yeah,  on  social. .

Luke: In our culture. Absolutely. 

Fiona: Or like  there's  tons  of  t- shirts  and  lots  of  merchandise  around  being  a wine mom-

Luke: Definitely a  hashtag. 

Fiona: Yeah.  There's  a  hashtag.  There's  full  accounts  with  like  hundreds  of  thousands  of  followers.

Luke: I  guess  the  socks  with,  if  you  can  see  this  or  something,  bring  me  a  glass  of  wine  or  some  (inaudible) -

Aaron: But  they're  on  the bottom, yeah, yeah.  Yeah. 

Chris: Speaking  from  a  guy  who  owns  a  pair  there?  I  borrowed  a  pair  of  socks  from  Luke  on  the  weekend.  We  won't  dive  into  why,  but  he  didn't  hand  over  the pour me a glass of  wine  socks.  I'm  a  little  disappointed.

Fiona: I  want  to  say  though,  I  don't  think  all  wine  drinking,  if  you're  a  mother,  is  problematic.  I  would  say  there's  just  been  a  normalization  of  maybe  over  consumption  of  wine  and  in  the  presence  of  children.  So  my  experience  personally  is  witnessing  my  mom  drink  at  the  end  of the day  and  it  kind  of  felt  like  she  wanted  to  kind  of  strip  away  from  the  day.  And  maybe  even  me  a  little  bit.  I'm  not  saying  that's  true,  but  I  see  lots  of  videos  on  Instagram  of  moms  holding  up  the  glass  of  wine,  where  their  young  kids  are  just  watching  TV  in  the  background.  And  they're  like,  if  you  know. Or  like  I  needed  this,  I  need  this.  It's  like  4: 00  PM.  Like  can't  get  through  the  rest  of  the  day  without  this.  So  actually  joking  about  is  alcoholism  and  we're  not  calling  it  what  it  is.  So  that's  where  I  say  there's  a  bit  of  a  fine  line,  but  I  don't  label  all  wine  drinking,  if  you're  a  mother,  to  be  problematic.

Aaron: No  it's  moderation  with  everything.  Right?

Chris: But  it's  kind  of  coming  from  a  place  of  kind  of  coping  versus  drinking  to  cope  versus  drinking  for  celebration.

Fiona: Absolutely.  Yeah.  It's  blurred  the  lines  between  those  two  places  actually,  and  it's  not  inviting  an  awareness  of  the  relationship  you  have  with  alcohol  and  how  it  affects  the  rest  of  your  family  potentially.  And  the  relationships  beyond  that.  It's  inviting  a  whole  normalization  of  over  consumption  with  actual  potential  alcoholism.

Chris: I  feel  like  that's  something  that I feel like we  see  though  a  lot  on  social  media.  And  I  mean,  I'm  sure  I've  been  guilty  of  it  in  the  past,  too,  where  often  we  see  following  so  many  different  beer  accounts  and  stuff  celebrating  bringing  home  massive  beer  hauls  and  all  exaggerated  amounts  of  alcohol.  And  it's  celebrated  like,  hey,  I  brought  home  like  57  beers  this  week  from  the  brewery.  And  it's  kind  of  like  a  lot  of  it  I  think  comes  from  FOMO  and  collecting  and  wanting  to  try  everything.  But  at  some  point  too,  I  think  it  does  blur  that  line  of  how  much  is  too  much.  And  not  saying  people  that  are  doing  this  are  drinking  all  57  beers  in  a  sitting  because  that's  not  what's  most  likely  happening.  But  I  think  sometimes  what,  in  the  craft  beer  industry,  what  people  can  kind  of  get  away  with  hiding  behind  is  well  I'm  supporting  micro  breweries,  local  businesses.  And  the  same  goes  for  probably  local  wines,  local  distilleries.
 But  then  what  is  not  being  talked  about  is  that  over  consumption,  which  is  definitely  happening  at  breweries  and  people  that  are  drinking  craft  beer.  And I  can  put  up  my  hand  and  say  I'm  guilty  of  having  too  many  craft  beers  in  an  evening.  But  I  think  what  I've  seen  and  people  are  starting  to  see  with  local  beer  is  now  maybe  things  are  turning  the  page  a  little  bit.  Breweries  are  coming  out  with  lower  alcohol  versions  because  people  want  to  have  a  couple  beers  without  feeling  like  they've  overdone  it.  And  even  with  personal  preference,  I've  started  to  shift  to  enjoying  more  loggers  and  things  like  that,  where  I  may  not  be  paying  for  it  as  much  the  next  day.  So  I  don't  know,  is  that  like,  that's  probably  something  that  you've  come  across.  And  was  that  kind  of  what  led  you  into  wanting  to  start...  I  mean,  you  mentioned  your  mom's  story,  but  just  looking  at  market  trends,  was  this  something  you  saw  as  a  huge  opportunity  when  you  started  your  business?

Fiona: Yeah,  certainly.  So  after  she  decided  to  go  alcohol  free  and  we  took a year to  drink  non- alcoholic  products,  everything  from  sparkling  wine,  distilled,  to  beer  and  spirits.  We  got  kind  of  bored  with  the  lack  of  selection  and  Vancouver  specifically,  and  the  inconvenience  of  it.  Having  to  go  to  four  different  stores  to  get  your  haul,  let's  call  it,  for  Christmas  or  your  haul  for  Thanksgiving  or  the  birthday  party.  And  things  being  sold  out  or  things  not  being  available  or  things  just  kind  of  being  half  quality,  like  just  not  great.  After  a  year  of  that,  we  just  thought,  oh,  this  is  ridiculous.  Let's  just  do  it,  do  it  ourselves.  And  we  all  happen  to  be,  my  mom,  my  sister  and  I,  we  all  happened  to  be  at  career  sort  of  crossroads  in  January.  So  we  decided  to  go  into  business  together.  And  we  have  not  looked  back  since.

Aaron: That's  awesome.  So  before  we  jump  in,  should  we  open  a  beverage  then?  What  do  you  suggest  we open first?

Fiona: Oh yeah.  Okay.  So  I  did  bring  you, I  did  bring  you  all  some  beer.  Non- alcoholic  beer.  We're  going  to  be  opening  some  Nirvana.  And  we  have  finally  completed  our  collection  of  Nirvana  beer.  This  is  a  east  London  brewery  that's  dedicated  to  brewing  only  alcohol  free  beer,  which  is  one  of  the  only  ones  in  the  UK  actually.  There's  always  breweries  that  have  both  alcohol  and  non- alcoholic  options,  but  this  one's  only  dedicated  to  alcohol  free  side.  We  finally  have  all  six  of  their  sort  of  classic  core  collection  and  it  just  arrived  off  the  boat  a  couple  weeks  ago.  So  I  thought,  I  brought  you  guys  the  last  two,  which  is  the  organic  pale  and  the  stout,  which  is  also  gluten  free.  It  looks  like  you're  opening  the  lager,  which  I  do  love.  The  Bavarian  Halls  lager  is  a  classic  sort  of  German  iconic  beer.  And  it  took  home  a  hat  trick  of  awards  in  2020  for  great  taste  in  the  beer  category.  This  is  one  of  my  favorite  beers,  really,  really  beautiful  blend.  So  I  wanted  to  ask  you  what  you've  selected.  Because  obviously  you  don't  have  to  drink  all  six,  but...

Luke: I've  got  the  IPA  going  right  now.

Fiona: Nice.  My  second favorite.

Luke: And yeah,  it's  quite  delicious  if  I  say  so.

Chris: I  had  a  question  about  that  year  you  mentioned  of  exploring  non- alcoholic  beverages.  Was  something  like  this,  Nirvana,  was  that  even  available  to  find  in  Vancouver  or  how  far  did  you  go?  Did  this  year  of  exploring  include,  I  mean,  it  probably  didn't  include  international  travel  because  this  was  all  during  COVID,  but  I  assume  you  were  kind  of  looking  outside  the  borders  of  Vancouver  and  BC,  once  you  noticed  our  meek  selection.

Fiona: Mild  selection.  We  started  to  look  out  towards  the  end  of  the  year.  I  would  say  the  beginning,  we  just  accepted  there  was  other  things  going  on.  So  we  were  just  probably  drinking  more  water,  probably  just  taking  it  easy.  I-

Aaron: That  soda  stream  was  a  good  investment.

Fiona: It  was  a  great  investment.  We  had  some  other  priorities,  but  certainly  around  celebration.  We  tried  to  maintain  family  celebration  as  much  as  possible.  And  we  had  enough  options  to  satisfy  us,  but  it  was  towards the end of  the  year  that  we  felt  like  there  was  just  like,  how  could  there  only  be  this?  This  doesn't,  there  can't  be.  And  then  we  kind  of  just  looked  out  and  looked  abroad  and  the  UK  is  doing  amazing.  They're  coming  out  with  40  brands  every  quarter  or  something.  The  US  is  catching  up  to  that.  Australia  is  booming.  It's  a  huge  non- alcoholic  industry  over  there.

Aaron: One  of  the  few  papers  I  saw  was I think it's  33%  market  share  for  non- alcoholic  products  in  Europe.  And  it's  only  2%  in  North  America.

Fiona: Yeah.  Spain's  doing  really  well.  Germany.  It's  everywhere.  But  here  we  didn't  immediately  think  of  a  business  out  of  that.  It  was  more  like  that  sucks  that  we're  so  behind.  But  Canada's  always  behind.  Aren't  we  just  so  slow  with  music  and  fashion  and  more  glorious  things. 

Chris: Mission  impossible  Three  just  came  out  in  theaters  last  week. 

Aaron: I  just  got  rid  of  my  rotary  phone  yesterday,  everybody. 

Chris: Yeah.  It's  interesting  though,  because  those  numbers,  Aaron,  that you  just  mentioned,  those  are  way  off.  Like  where's  that  coming  from?  You  would  think  that  because  drinking  in  the  states  and  Canada  and  in  the  UK  and  Australia,  like  I  would  imagine  they're  kind  of  at  that  similar  levels.  But  this  industry  has  kind  of  skyrocketed  everywhere  but  North  America.

Aaron: Yeah.  Which  is  really  fascinating. 

Chris: I'd  be  curious  like  where is  that  coming  from?

Aaron: It  seems  almost  as  insane  as,  well  there's  just  no  red  cars  in  North  America.  We  just  don't  sell  red  cars.

Fiona: Yeah,  totally.  I  think  one  of  the  things  my  mom  noticed  because  in  the  beginning  of  2020,  before  she  made  this  decision,  she  went  back  to  Scotland  to  visit  some  family.  And  one  of  the  family  members  was  in  hospital.  And  when  she  went  to  the  hospital,  they  had  a  full  unit,  a  whole  ward  size  dedicated  to,  it's  called  the  liver  unit.  It's  dedicated  to  folks  whose  livers  have  failed  or  in  cirrhosis  and  need  replacements  or  on  dialysis  or  whatever.  And  she  was  kind  of  shocked  at  how  big  it  was.  So  potentially  they've  invested  more  or  have  seen  more  detriment  faster  and  have  tried  to  make  innovative  changes  to  curb  that  detriment.
 We  all  know  how  big  of  a  drinking  culture  the  UK  and  other  similar  cultures  is.  Maybe  it  hit  its  peak.  Maybe  it  just  got  so  bad  that  they  decided  to  make  a  change.  And  maybe  here  we  haven't  got  as  bad  or  we're  just  almost  at  that  threshold.  And  we're  maybe  all  reaching  it  now  because  of  the  pandemic.  I  mean,  that's  what  I  hear.

Aaron: Yeah.  I  mean,  we  definitely  talked  about  that  with  Jordan  in  the  last  episode  of  just  how  much  beer  was  leaving  his  place.

Chris: Yeah.  I  mean,  if  there's  ever  a  time  for  the  market  to  shift  a  little  bit  and  drinking  consumption  habits  to  shift  a  little  bit,  it  is  probably  coming  out  of  a  time  when  a  lot  of  us  were  spending  a  lot  of  time  at  home.  Yeah.  I  would  say  sometimes  drinking  to  cope  with  the  fact  that  we're  dealing  with  a  pandemic  and  the  stresses  of  that  and  not  being  around  friends  and  family  physically.

Aaron: And  I  could  tell  from  my  own  personal  experience,  that's  what  it  was  for  me  too.  Oh,  it's  five  o'clock  and  I'm  done  for  work.  I'm  bored.  I  can  go  outside.  Well,  got  a  fridge  full  of  beer. 

Chris: A  hundred  percent.

Fiona: And  that  five  o'clock  started  to  creep  up.  I  think,  from  what  I've  understood.  Other  people  brought  it  up  to  four  and  three  and  two and  one,  and  then  there  was 11: 00  AM  happy  hours.  And  I  think  folks  were  getting  a  little  alarmed.

Chris: The  11  AM  happy  hour.  If  you're  on  vacation,  maybe,  you  know if  you're  in  Mexico,  that  can  pass.  But on  a  Tuesday,  that's  a  tough  call. 

Fiona: Zoom  call. 

Chris: Zoom  call  11:00  AM  happy.  If  someone  sends  you  that  invite  at  work,  like  you  definitely  take  a bit of a double take.

Aaron: Well, just a  quick  side  tangent  guys,  like  how  crazy  is  it  looking  back  that  we  all  thought  that  Zoom  happy  hour was a good idea?

Chris: It  was never  a  good  idea.  It  was  never  a  good  idea.  From  my  experience,  it  starts  off  with  the  best  intentions  and  it's  like  after  everyone  has  one  beer,  it  just  turns  into  people  trying  not  to  talk  over  each  other,  but  at  the  same  time  talking  over  everyone.  And  then  it's  just  yelling  for  like  15  minutes  and  laughing  and  people  typing  in  the  chat.  Like  what  was  that  again?  Oh,  I  missed  that.

Luke: Or  also  if  you  have  like  nine  people  on  the  call,  it's  just  seven  people  listening  to  two  people  talk. 

Chris: Exactly.  And  then  someone  says  something  like  way  too  personal  and  you're  like,  then  there's  the  person  after  that  who  follows  up  with,  oh  geez,  4: 31  already.  All  right,  got  to  go  guys.  Great  happy  hour.  And  then  all of  a  sudden,  two  minutes  later,  the  whole  happy  hour  ends.  And you're like, what-

Aaron: There's  always  that  one  domino  that's  been  holding  the  whole  happy  hour  together.

Chris: 100%. 

Aaron: Jim's  out  of  here.  All  right,  parties  over,  man.

Fiona: Let's  just  say  Zoom is  a  sad  place.

Aaron: It's  a  very  sad  place.

Chris: Oh  man.

Fiona: Wow. 

Chris: Too  true.  I'm  glad  real  happy  hours,  whether  it's  with  non- alcoholic  beverages  or  alcoholic  beverages  is  coming  back.

Aaron: Well,  and  then  also  full  disclosure  too.  It's  kind  of  funny  of  us  saying  that  because  we're  recording  remotely  at  the  moment  and  we're  drinking  our  beverages  here  all  on  Zoom  like  technology.

Chris: This  is  true.  But  at  this  time  of  the  evening,  I  don't  think,  that's  past  happy  hour.  Is  it  not?

Aaron: Yeah.

Fiona: Yeah.  Well, I want  to  say  that  part  of  my  personal  work  is  to  destigmatize  what  drinking  and  happy  hour  looks  like.  And  I  hope  that  we  can  move  away  from  it  just  being  assumed  that  all  beverage  intake  is  about  alcohol.  I'm  actually  pretty  proud  that  I  can  go  for  a  beer at 8:00  AM  because  I  drink a  non  alcoholic  beer  and  it  actually  kicks  in  a  nice  sort  of  health  benefit  of  the  day.

Luke: Well,  you know what? I had this  thought  because  I  now  have,  well  now  five  in  the  fridge  since  I  just  drank  one.  But  I've  never  had  like  a  beer  at  work  at  10.  And  that's  like, I think  I  might  try  that  tomorrow.  It's  just  going  to  be  like  a  totally  different  experience.  Right?  I've  had  coffee,  I've  had  tea,  I've  had  juice  and  pop  and  all  the  beverages.  But  I've  never  had  that  like  sitting  at  my  computer,  doing  whatever  work  I'm  going  to  be  doing  that  day.  And  then  just  enjoying  the  flavor  of  a  good  beer.

Fiona: Exactly.  I  think  you're  touching  on  the  most  important  part  about  drinking  anything  is,  does  it  make  you  feel  good?  Do  you  enjoy  it?  Is  it  pleasurable?  Right?  That's  the  whole point. 

Luke: Yeah.  Going  to  save  one  of  those  for  sure  for  tomorrow  and have a little-

Fiona: Yeah, and  there  is-

Chris: Post  morning  Zoom  meeting. 

Fiona: A  post. 

Aaron: Just  do  it  on  the  Zoom  man,  and  throw  everybody  for  a  loop.

Fiona: A  driving  beer. 

Chris: That's  the  thing  though.  Do you  have  to  call it,  like  if  it's  an  non- alcoholic  beer,  do  you  have  to  qualify  if  you're  drinking  this  or  pre- qualify  like,  hey,  this  is  non- alcoholic  beer.  Some  people  will  think  you're  just  getting  sauce  at your 10: 00  AM  call.  Like  this  guy's  off  the  handle  right  now.

Aaron: No,  but  Luke  has  an  excuse,  because  he's  about  to  go  on  vacation  and he is  like,  man,  he's  already  checked  out  on  vacation  mode,  isn't  he?

Luke: Yeah.  But  we  have  a  pretty  like  strict  no  drinking  at  work  policy  at  work.  So  yeah,  it  might  need  some  disclosures  and  some  pre- explanations  if  it's  going  to  show  up  on a  Zoom  call. 

Chris: You  probably  got  to  sign  a  waiver.  There's  probably  an  online  waiver  for  that.

Aaron: Well,  I'm  enjoying  the  Bavarian  lager  here. The  Hellis  lager  even.  And  this  is  like  the  closest  I  can  say  it  is  to  an  actual  traditional  full  alcohol  Bavarian  lager.  So  yeah, because  Hellis is  one  of  my  favorite  styles  there,  so  yeah,  really  enjoying  this.

Fiona: Awesome.

Aaron: Chris,  what  are  you  drinking?  And  what's  your  review  here?

Chris: I  am  trying  the  traditional  pale  ale.  And  yeah,  it's  pretty  solid.  It's  got  some  nice  kind  of  roasty  malt  flavors  to  it. I mean, like  I  think  most  non- alcoholic  beers  I  find  they're  definitely  kind  of  lighter  in  the  body,  but  a  few  that  I've  tried,  like  they're  kind  of  lighter  in  the  body  and  then  really  lacking  flavor  as  well.  That's  why  I've  found  it  the  few  that  I've  tried  pretty  hard  to  get  into.  But  this  one's  pretty  solid.  Like  it's  actually  got  a  good  flavor  to  it  and  is  definitely  like  closer  to  the  English  kind  of  ales  that  I've  had,  either  at  Main  Street  or-

Aaron: The  big  thing  that  I  forgot  to  say  about  this  lager  is  the  carbonation  is  correct  on  it.  Because  there's  been  some  other  non- alcoholic  beers that  I  had  where  it's  like  big  thick,  soda  stream  bubbles  in  there.

Chris: Yeah.  That's  just  not  going  to do it.

Fiona: No. I was going to  say  just  about  your  traditional  paleo,  Chris,  the  non- alcoholic  limit  is 0. 5%  alcohol  by  volume  ABV,  that  traditional  is  only,  that  is  actually  a  0. 0.  And  that  is  for  folks  that  aren't  comfortable  with  any  ABV  present  in  the  beer.  So  with  Nirvana,  they  don't  do  a  lot  of  dealkalizing.  They  actually  do  most  of  their  work  in  the  ferment  up  to 0. 5%  or  just  keeping  it  around  that 0. 3.  So  that's  actually  pretty  hard  to  do,  to  get...  It's  like  a...  They  won't  tell  me  exactly  how  they  do it.  It's  pretty  proprietary,  but  to  be  able  to  achieve  the  flavor  that  they've  reached  without  doing  any  full  ferment  and  then  dealkalizing,  I'd  say  they've  put  in  their  10,000  hours  to  figure  out  how  to  make  that happen.

Luke: Yeah.  It  seems  like  a  pretty  complex  process  to  try  to  achieve  or  kind  of  mimic  that  flavor  in  alcoholic  beer  while  keeping  it  like  under  that  limit.  Like  you  mentioned. 

Chris: So  if  I'm  hearing  correctly,  there's  kind  of, and  I  don't  really  know  much  about  brewing  beer,  but  what  I'm  hearing  is  to  make  non- alcoholic  beer,  there's  kind  of  two  approaches.  You  can  do  all  your  sort  of  flavor  building  before  there's  any  sort  of  presence  of  alcohol  before  any  of  that  fermentation  begins  or  you  can  let  it  go  a  little  higher  and  then  take  that  alcohol  out  in  one  way  or  another.  Sort  of a  dealkalized  versus  a  brew  up  to  zero.

Fiona: Yeah.  That's  correct. And  dealkalizing  has  been  used  regardless  outside  the  non  alcoholic  industry  as  well.  Sometimes  we,  and  you  would  probably  know  this  more  than  I  do,  but  sometimes  we  ferment  much  higher  than  can  be  sold  as  a  normal  sessionable  drinking  beer.  And  we  have  to  bring  it  back  down  to  a  five  to  7%.  So  this  happens  in  the  wine  industry  as  well.  Some  really,  really  deep  wines  will  go  way  past  20%  and  that's  just  not  conducive  to  anyone  drinking  a  bottle  of  wine.  So  they  will  bring  it  back  down  using  (inaudible)   methods,  vacuum  distillation  is  usually  the  sort  of  common  method,  but  in  more  recent  advanced  wine  making  methods  specifically,  they  use  spinning  cone  column,  which  we  can  get  into  later-

Chris: Centrifuging. 

Fiona: Yeah,  we  can  talk  about  that  with  wine,  but  yeah,  for  beer,  they  do  a  lot  of dealkalizing.

Luke: I  had  no  idea  that  was a  thing  I  thought  with  regular  alcohol  levels,  they  just,  this  is  where  it  is. This is  what  we're  going  to  call  it, sell it.

Fiona: We're  going  to  call  it  a  day  right  here.  No,  it's  a  lot  of  playing  around.  I  mean,  it  would  be  kind  of  wild  to  drink  a  25% ABV wine. A glass of that-

Aaron: I'm just trying to remember, like what's a  Fatt  Doug  like  seven  and  a  half.  Like  here comes a 13%  Fatt  Doug,  like  whoa.  Night  over.

Fiona: Yeah,  yeah.

Luke: So,  I'm  curious  with  Nirvana,  was  this  a  lot  of  trial  and  error  to  like  get  that  flavor  and  then  also  be  able  to  keep  it  at  that  level?  Like  I  imagine  it  took  a  while  to  try  to  perfect  that,  and  then  also  like  for  the  ones  that are 0%, then also do the  dealkalizing.  Like  I  imagine  it is  probably  hard  to  get  that  right  the  first  time. 

Fiona: It is.  Yeah. I think  that's  why  so  many  good  beers  are  made  by  full  proof  alcoholic  brewers  because  they  know what  they're  looking  for.  And  they  deeply  understand  the  process.  Becky  and  her  brother  over  at  Nirvana  were  beer  lovers  before  they  started  brewing.  It  took  a  lot  for  them  to,  and  they  have  sort  of  a  beer  expert  on  their  team  that  they  brought  on  as  a  partner  early  on  to  start  to  learn  the  process  and  come  up  with  what  their  craft  would  look  like.  But  they  didn't  come  from,  they  don't  have  a  line  of  full  strength  beer  themselves  to  kind  of  compare  it  to.  So  this  is  all  made  from  a  lot  of  testing  and a lot  of  work  with  a  unique  set  of  hops.  But  it's  available  in  the  UK,  but  also  that  lager  is  fully  made  in  Germany  and  they  bring  it  over  once  it's  complete.  And  so  they've  done  a  lot  of  work  to  craft  this  up.

Aaron: Right.  Luke  looks  like  you  grabbed  a  new  one  there.  What  are  you  opening?

Luke: I'm  pretty  stoked  to  try  this  stout.  So  that's  the  next  one  I  grabbed  here. 

Fiona: Cool.  That's  one  of  our  new  ones.

Luke: Yeah.  I  see.  This  is a  0. 0.

Fiona: This is also 0. 0.  This  is  also  gluten  free.  We  get  a  lot  of  requests  for  gluten  free  beer.  So  I'm  happy  to  have  something  to  offer  people  now.  So  these  are one of the, this is  one  of  the  first  brands  that  we  reached  out  to  when  we  decided  to  launch  the  company  and  launch  the  import  side  of  the  business.  So  we  have  two  kind  of  arms  of  the  business.  One  is  our  import  and  one's  our  marketplace  for  consumers  called  sansorium. com.  They  just  continually  to  do  well  in  this  space  and  we  wanted  to  bring  it  to  Canada.  So  here  it  is.

Luke: Is  your  team  the  only  distributor  for  them  in  Canada  or is it like, are  you  distributing  across  Canada?

Fiona: Yeah,  so  we  were  the  first  to  bring  them  into  Canada.  We've  just  signed  them  onto  a  distributor  in  Ontario  now.  And  they  have  a  US  distributor  as  well.  So  we  represent  now  Manitoba  and  west  for  distribution  and  they  now  have  their  eastern  rep.  So  it's  great.  They're  growing.

Aaron: But like  if  somebody  was to go to  sansoriumm. com,  because  we  have  a  lot  of  listeners  in  Cornell,  they  could  order  and  you  ship  to  them.  But then  also  if  they're  throughout  Canada,  you'll  ship  to  them  as  well.  Right?

Fiona: That's right. We  do  ship  across  Canada.  Online,  there's  no  borders.  So  yeah,  we  have  a  flat  rate  shipping  in  VC for 10  bucks,  no  matter  what  size  your  order.

Aaron: Man,  (inaudible)   buy  it  up.

Luke: I'm  going  to  have  to  text  this all to my mom  and  dad.  So  like  even  if  they  are  listening,  like...

Fiona: And  then  again,  across  Canada  flat  rate.  Anybody  else,  20  bucks. 

Aaron: So,  how's  that  stout?

Luke: It's  really  nice.  Yeah.  As  I  poured,  it  had  some  really  nice  head  as  well,  but  it's  great.  It's  smooth.  And  like  you  said,  the  carbonation  on...  What  were  you  drinking?  The  lager? 

Aaron: The  lager, yeah. 

Luke: You  noted  the  carbonation.  I  think  this one  is  great  too  for  a  stout.  Nice.  Like  chocolatey,  definitely  chocolatey  notes.  I  see  it's  got  notes  of  vanilla  in  there.  That's  labeled  in  the  tasting  notes  on  the  bottle,  but  definitely  kind  of  cocoa- y  forward,  which  is  definitely  nice.

Fiona: Glad  you  like it.

Luke: Yeah.  That's  delicious.  For  non- alcoholic  beverages  in  Canada.  Like  what  are  some  of  the  other kind of  big  players  out  there? 

Fiona: Beer  is  popular.  I  would  say  everyone  kind  of  knows  that  non acholic  beer  exists  at  least.  And  at  the  very  least  have  tried  one  or  two.  We  were  attracted  to  Nirvana  because  it's  craft  in  a  glass  bottle,  which  is  pretty  unique  right  now.  So  there's  not  another  craft  beer  in  Canada  from  what  I  can  think  of-

Aaron: Alcohol  free. 

Fiona: Alcohol free  in  a  glass  bottle. Because  for  us  as  a  business,  it's  really  great  for  restaurants  and  upper  end  wholesale.  So  we  took  them  on  for  that  reason.  It's  a  great  product,  but  also  it's  really  good  for  distribution.

Luke: Nice.  Does  Nirvana,  do  they  do  any  sort  of  like  draft  business  maybe  in  the  UK?

Fiona: I think it's starting.  Yeah. I think  it's  starting.  We've  asked.  There's  just  a  ton  of  logistics  involved  in  getting  that  developed  out  here  and  probably  the  next  phase  would  actually  be  brewing  in  Canada  for  us  to  be  able  to  do  that. 

Luke: I  mean,  it  still  sounds  like  relatively  speaking.  It's a  pretty  untapped,  pun  intended,  market  in  Canada.

Fiona: Yes.  It's  why,  totally is, which  is  why  at  the,  on  the  weekend  we  were  all  at  this  big  expo  for  health  foods,  Canada,  basically  with  hundreds  and  hundreds  of  different  vendors.  And  when  I  came  back  and  I  saw  maybe  there  was  probably  less  than  10  vendors  in  the  non  alcoholic  space.  I  just  told  my  community,  if  you're  building  an alt  brand,  keep  going,  because  there  is  so  much  opportunity. There is  so  much  space  and  there's  so  much  demand.  And  the  big  distributors  are  trying  to  find  a  new  non  brand  that  they  can  represent.  So  everyone  should  be  doing  it,  if  you  ask  me.

Luke: And  some  of  the  pros  too  is  like,  like  you  mentioned  some  of  these  brands  being  in like  a  Whole  Foods.  These  are  on  the  shelves  in  grocery  stores.  Whereas  at  least  in  BC,  I'm  not  sure  about  the  rest  of  Canada,  but  you  can't  buy  alcohol  in  most  grocery  stores.  I  know  there's  some  select  cases  where  you  can,  I  know  like  Superstore-

Aaron: That's been  wine  too,  for  some  things  like  you  can't  buy  beer  in  a  grocery  store.  Yeah.

Luke: Like  I  was  going  to  say  Superstore  in  Richmond.  Like  they  have  a  wine  insider  aisle,  but  I  guess  that's  like  the  exception,  like  you  mentioned.  But  I  mean  that's  yeah,  if  you're  just  strolling  picking  up  groceries  and  you're  feeling  thirsty  or  you  want  something  to  pair  with  the  meal  that  you're  about  to  prepare.  Well,  if  there's  a  plethora  of  non- alcoholic  beers  kind  of  right  there  for  you,  then  it's  an  easy  selection  to  make,  right? 

Chris: Yeah.  That's  a  huge  stage.  And  like  that's  essentially  empty  space  in  the  shelves  where  you  could  potentially  be  set  up  for  success  if  you  do  things  right.

Fiona: This  is  also  back  to  our  conversation  about  the  difference  in  the  UK  and  Australia  and at  west  here,  they've  all  had  alcohol  in  their  grocery  stores  since  the  beginning.  Yeah. I  actually  can't  speak  for  the  US.  I  think  that  there  are  some  that  maybe  haven't  integrated-

Aaron: A  Washington  state.  Yeah.  Definitely  you  can,  it's  one  of  the first things  I  used  to  do,  it's  when  I'm  down  in  the  city  (inaudible)   excitement  is  go  to  Fred  Meyers  there  and  there's  the  two  rows  of  beer  fridges  there. 

Fiona: Yeah.  So  that's  like-

Chris: You go to  Walmart.

Fiona: Yeah.  Walmart,  CVS.  I  think  they  all  have  it.  So  let's  not  speak  for  them,  but  certainly  in  Canada,  Save- On  foods,  they've  only  launched in the  last  few  years,  six  locations  that  have  a  fully  integrated  wine  category,  alcoholic  wine  category  for  BC  wine,  specifically.  Some  insight,  I  don't  think  it's  doing  too  well,  maybe  because  we've  never  shopped  for  wine  inside  of  grocery  stores  and  maybe  people  are  feeling  a  little  bit  of  hesitation  around  that.  Just,  I  don't  know,  quality.

Aaron: This might be  a  selection  thing  too.

Fiona: Selection.  Yeah. If they don't like BC wine.

Aaron: Or only  a  certain  size  of  a  vineyard  can  be  in  there. 

Fiona: Yeah.  We  don't  work  with  the  liquor  board.  Non- alcoholic  product  goes  through  the  food  license,  food  and  beverage  license  side  of  things. So  we  have  a  CFI  license.  We do not need  to  work  the  liquor  board.  So  we  can  work  with  any  retailer  that  wants  to  sell  it,  which  is  nice  and  easy. 

Aaron: And  you  can  ship  a  direct  to  their  house. 

Fiona: Yeah. 

Chris: That's  awesome. 

Luke: I kind of  want  to  try  another  one  here.

Aaron: All  right. 

Luke: Trying  this  hoppy  pale  ale.  It's  actually,  it's  really  good.

Fiona: Certainly  hoppy.

Luke: Yeah.  This is  kind  of  trippy.  Yeah.

Aaron: The  crazy  thing,  man  is  you'll  go  to  bed  and  you'll  be  like,  hey,  I'm  fine.  And  then  you'll  wake  up  in  the  morning.  You're  like,  yeah,  let's  go.

Luke: Even  after  drinking,  I  never  wake  up  in  the  morning  like  yeah,  let's  go.  A  big  time  not  a  morning  person  at  all.  As  hard  as  I  try  to  be. 

Aaron: But  no,  but  I'm  talking  about  just  the  sluggishness  of  like,  oh yeah, I got to go. 

Fiona: Yeah.  There's  actually  so  much  about  drinking  non- alcoholic  product.  Like  making  the  switch  from  the  alcoholic  version  to  the  non- alcoholic  version  and  the  placebo  effect  that  it  has  on  your  body,  your  brain  and  everything  included.  Like  it's  pretty  wild.  That's  why  not  only  are  the  hops  giving  me  a  little  relaxation  in  the  non alk  session that  we  just  had, or  IPA.  But  I  associate,  and  this  is  where  most  people  I  would  agree  actually  would  associate  drinking  a  beer  with  relaxing.  So  as  long  as you have  the  association  of  the  taste  to  the  effect  of  the  alcohol,  your  body  knows  what  to  do.  It  will  go  into  a  state  of  relaxation  on  the  first  sip,  because  it's  got  a  queue.  The  old  factory  system  has  a  queue  by  smelling  it,  your  taste  buds  and  the  saliva  and  the  secretion  and  everything  into  your  gut  knows  how  to  like  lower  its  need  for  digestion.  It's  all  working  together.  Your  cortisol  goes  down  everything.  So  you  can  actually  feel  super  relaxed  on  alcoholic  beer  without  the  ethanol.

Chris: Yeah.  Because  it's  like  a  learned  process  of  the body. 

Fiona: And  I'll  even  have  a  glass  of  like  red  wine  and  I'll  start  to  feel  a  little  flush  and  it's  IPO.  It's  impossible.  There's  no  way  there's 0. 5%.  My  body's  metabolizing  that  alcohol  faster  than  I  could  feel  any  kind  of  effect  ever.  But  that  was  what  I  did  before.  If  I  drank  a  glass  of  red  wine  that's  I  felt  hot.  I  felt  the  sensation  and  a  lot  of  people  do  too.  And  I  can  even  manifest  it  too.  If  I  wanted  to,  I  can  even  make  it  happen  now. 

Aaron: As  you're  talking  about  it,  I  get  a  little  bit  of  my  cheek.  I  was  like,  oh  man,  am  I  drunk? 

Fiona: Like  behind  the  knees?  Like  if  you've  practiced  something  so  many  times,  if  your  body  has  practiced  something  so  many  times  it  can  do  it  again,  just  from  muscle memory.

Aaron: Now  I  don't  really  want  to  put  any  particular  company  on  blast,  but  I  do  find  this  funny  because  I  was  in  Whistler  over  the  weekend  and-

Luke: You're  preempting  that.  But  like  assuming  this  is  followed  by  putting  said  company  on  blast.

Aaron: No, no, no, no.

Fiona: No  names.  Okay.

Aaron: No  names.  Okay. Trying to  be  friendly  here.  But  there  was  a  great  non- alcoholic  beer  selection  up  in  Whistler  over  the  weekend  and  something  caught  my  eye.  So  keep  in  mind,  this  is  a  non- alcoholic  beer.  And  it's  called  a  session  IPA.  They've  called  it  a  session  IPA.  And  I'm  like,  well  I  know  you  sell  a  regular  IPA.  So  what's  different  about  this  session  IPA.  They  both  don't  have  alcohol  in  it.

Luke: How  much  more  sessionable  can  it  get  in?

Aaron: Yeah. 

Luke: And  did  you  try it? 

Aaron: It's  fantastic.  But  it's  just  like  guys,  I  mean,  this  name  doesn't  make  sense.  So  because  session  IPA is,  for  anybody  that  isn't  aware,  is  because  generally  IPAs  are  above  5%  alcohol  and  then  the  session  IPAs  are  below  5%.  So  the  thing  is  this  company  makes  both  a  quote,  regular  IPA and a quote  IPA.  And  it's  like,  well  what's the difference?  They're  both  alcohol  free.

Luke: Have  you  tried  both  of  those?

Aaron: I  have.  Yeah.  They're  both  great.

Luke: You've  obsessed.

Aaron: There's  different  hops  in  both  of  them. 

Fiona: Different  hops.  Yeah.  Dial  a  friend.

Luke: I  mean  this,  this  non- alcoholic  brewery  is  not  solely  to  blame  here  when  it  comes  to  just  random  names  and  making  up  styles  for  beer.  Like  I  feel  like-

Aaron: They  should  have  just  called  it  a  unicorn  beer  or  something. 

Luke: ...  that is  flagging  the  craft  beer  industry  everywhere,  like  just  random  names  and  making  up  styles  for  beer.  Like  this is  kind  of,  we  could  probably  find  like  a  very  heated  Reddit  forum  on  this.  If  you  have,  if  you  want  to  go  into  like  a  black  hole  for  seven  days,  I'm  sure  you  could  find  enough  content  to do  it.  There's  somebody  angry,  just  smashing  their  keyboard  now  about  why  a  milkshake  IPA you  should  be  banned  from  all-

Aaron: I  think  a  milkshake  idea  should  be  banned  for  many  reasons.  So  anyway,  we've  talked  a  lot  about  beer,  but  you  had  a  major  event  recently  in  Vancouver's  first  alcohol  free  wine  tasting  night.  How  did  that  go?  And  what  was  the  event  for?

Fiona: Yes,  that  was  our  first  wine  tasting  night.  It  went really,  really  well.  We  had  70  tickets  sell  out  in  a  few  days,  which  we  underestimated-

Aaron: And more on a wait list. 

Fiona: And  we  wait  listed  people.  Yeah.  So  obviously  there  was  some  interest  and  we  barely  put  the  word.  I  thought  I'd  have  to  do  a  lot  more  marketing  than  that,  but  thankfully  didn't,  everybody  showed  up,  which  was  great.  We  have-

Aaron: Sorry  to  interrupt,  but  I  will  say  big  difference  that  I  noticed,  because  I  was  at  the  event  is  alcohol  free,  everybody  was  on  time.  They  were  punctual.  Like  the  event  was  ready  to  go  like  20  minutes  before  it  was,  everybody  was  there  like  20  minutes  beforehand.  And  you  had  to  text  your  virtual  guest  to  be  like,  yo,  okay.  We  started  early.

Fiona: I know  I  gave  everybody  an  hour  to  show  up  and  they  showed  up  all  before  seven.  I  had  like  two  stragglers  at  7: 45.  Sorry  six.  Yeah.  6: 45.  It  was  a  bit  much. 

Aaron: Yeah,  everybody  was  like  in  their  seats  ready  to go at 6: 30  and  it's  like,  whoa. Okay.

Fiona: So  keen.  Yeah.  We  had  to  text-

Luke: Let's ease into this.

Fiona: Let's  ease  in.  No,  our  guest  was  in  Australia  and  in  at  the  vineyard  sort  of  out  in  the  fields  and I  had  to  like  draw  him  back  in  somehow  from  over  text  to  get  online.  Anyway,  it  went  really  well.  To  my  best  knowledge  and  we  kind  of  did  a  little  bit  of  research,  there  hasn't  been  an  alcohol  free  wine  tasting  night  like  that  in  Canada  maybe,  or  they  haven't  published  it.  But  essentially  we  had  25, 30  different  wines  that  you  could  taste  that  night.  So  every  bottle  was  opened.  We  talked  about  one  collection  in  particular  because  it  was  the  launch  in  Canada  for  Edenvale  Australia's  most  decorated  alcohol  free  wine.  And  then  we  opened  up  all of  the  other  bottles  that  we  normally  carry  on  Sansorium.  So  folks  could  come  and  try  everything  and  buy  it  at  the  same  time.
 And  we  would  give  you  sort  of  tasting  notes  and  profiles  on  each  of  the  wines.  We'd  answer  questions  about  how  dealkalized  wine  is  made  a  real  opportunity.  There's  been  definitely  some  unfortunate  alcohol  free  wine  made  in  the  past  and  has  left  some  people  with  a  little  bit  of  apprehension  about  purchasing  or  trying  new  alcohol  free  wine.  Our  hope  from  that  event  was  to  bust  some  myths  and  really  get  people  onto  finding  a  new  one  that  they  really  enjoyed.  But  yeah,  the  goal  was  to  launch,  primarily  was  to  launch  Edenvale,  and  success.  We  did  it.  It's  in  the  world  now  it's  in  Canada.  They've  been  around  for  a  long  time.  So it's  really  great  to  have  them  in  Canada  now.

Luke: Yeah.  I'd  be,  now  as  you  described  this,  I'd  be  super  curious  to  try  some  of  the  wines  that  you  and  your  team  carry,  because  I  must  admit,  I  do  have  a  bad  association  with  non alcohol  with  alcohol  free  wine.  Just  because  I'm  sure  the  ones  that  I've  had  many  years  back  were  just  not  the  good  ones.  They  definitely  were  not  the  good  ones.

Fiona: Yeah.  I  don't  blame  you.  That's  actually  what  kind  of  catalyzed  us  into  getting  into  the  business  in  the  first  place  was  our  love  for  wine.  I  don't  have  a  huge  relationship  with  alcohol.  So  wine  isn't  at  the  top  of  my  priorities,  but  I  actually  started  enjoying  alcohol  free  wine  much  more  than  I  did  the  alcoholic  version  because  I  felt  free  to  have  life  around  it.  I'm  fairly  allergic  to  alcohol  and  to  its  effects.  So  drinking  alcohol  free  wine  means  I  can  drive  where  I  want  to  go.  I  can  feel  myself.  I  can  act  myself.  I  can  get  up  the  next  day,  go  for  a  run.  Look  after  my  daughter,  blah,  blah,  blah.  Everything.  Life  is  just  kind  of,  for  me,  a  little  bit  easier.  And  the  pleasure  of  the  beverage  is  actually  more  at  the  forefront  for  me  in  terms  of  profile,  tasting  notes,  just  overall  experience.
 I'm  not  kind  of  negotiating  and  battling  with  the  ethanol  and  the  beverage  to  get  the  honest  expression  of  what's  trying  to  come  through  in  that  varietal.  I'm  just  tasting  it  as  it  is.  So  that's  where  wine  kind  of  came  up  for  us  as  the  priority.  You  will  have  had  some  bad  experiences  because  the  technology  wasn't  that  great  to  bring  alcoholic  wine  down  to  alcohol  free,  they  were  really  great  at  bringing  some  of  the  alcohol  out  with  the  technology  that  they  had,  but  certainly  not  taking  it  down  to  zero.  And  what  happens  when  you  take  out  ethanol,  which  is  a  very  powerful  molecule  at  holding  flavor  and  body  and  profile  and  notes  and  everything  we're  looking  for  and  depth,  it  goes  with  the  ethanol.  So  you're  left  with  this  watery  version  of  a  grape.

Luke: Right. And  I  imagine  too, the  the  market  and  the  demand  for  these  products  is  changing  now.  But  years  back  when  I  might  have  tried  these  wines,  those  were  probably  sitting  on  the  shelf  for  quite  a  while,  too, a  the  grocery  store.  So  all,  everything  you've  just  described,  plus  give  it  four  or  five  months  sitting  on  the  top  of  a  shelf  in  a  store  that's  fluctuating  by  10  degrees  every  night  when  the  everybody  goes  home. 

Fiona: You're  right. 

Luke: Probably not  a  good  product  in  the  end.

Aaron: Because  just  thinking  about  this,  like  how  you  said,  how  there's  like  a  non  fermenting  process  with  some  of  the  beers  that  you have for us,  you  can't  just  do  that  with  wine  either  because  it's  just  grape  juice.  So  does  all  wine  have  to  go  through  that  fermentation  process  and  then  have  the  alcohol  removed?

Fiona: Yeah.  Yeah.  So  the  way  you  make  alcohol  free  wine  starts  at  the  same  way  you  make  alcoholic  wine.  So  you'll  have  very  unique  varietal  vineyards,  you'll  have  different  harvesting  schedules.  You'll  have  different  years  that  the  grapes  were  picked,  different  regions  so  we  can  kind  of  go  through  the  same  terwar  conversation  about  wine  that  we  for  alcoholic  wine,  as  we  would  for  alcohol  free  wine.  After  it's  been  harvest,  after  it's  been  fermented  there's  one  step  at  the  end,  kind  of  a  complicated,  long  step,  but  there  is  another  step  that  dealkalizes  the  wine.  The  tricky  thing  though,  is  that  those  brands  probably  didn't  realize  where  they  were  losing  the  profile,  where  they  were  losing  body,  where  they  were  losing  notes  and  where  they  were  losing  that  length  and  where  they  were  losing...  If they  wanted  a  dry  red,  they  weren't  sure  where  they  were  losing  it.
 Edenvale  have  done  a  ton  of  research  and  discovered  where  in  the  process  they  were  losing all of that,  all  that,  all  those  characteristics  and  figured  out  how  to  put  it  back  into  the  wine.  So  not  only are  they  dealkalizing,  they're  deconstructing  the  wine,  figuring  that  out,  bringing  back  some  of  the  varietal,  grape  must  back  into  it.  And  then  kind  of  re- crafting  the  wine  at  the  end  before  you  taste  it.  So  it's  quite  laborious. It's not,  it's  not  cheap.  They've  invested  almost $ 4  million  in  their  technology  to  be  able  to  do  this.  And  they've  been  working  on  it  since  2006.  So  this  isn't  for  anyone  to  just  start  and  think  they  will  nail  it  the  first  time  it  does  take  a  lot  of  work.

Chris: I  mean,  when  you  describe  this,  I  kind  of  feel  like  when  you  describe  when  you  call  a  product  something  free,  like  it  almost  sounds  at  the  surface  it's  losing  something  or  it's  a  negative.  Like  that's  the  connotation  I  kind  of  previously  had  towards  it.  But  then  you  describe  all of  the  work  that  goes  into  removing  the  alcohol  from  one  of  these  products.  And  it's  just  as  craft  as  an  alcoholic wine  or  in  the  case  of  the  beer  we've  been  drinking  the  same  thing.  So  I  feel  like  they've  kind  of  had  to  like alcoholic  free  products  have  been  at  this  disadvantage,  I  think  just  from  like  a  branding,  right?  Do  you  think  that  calling  something  alcoholic  free  does  more  harm  than  good  in  some  cases,  whereas  like  would  you  ever,  at  some  point  call  it,  not  even  call  it  beer  or  call  it  wine,  call  it  something  completely  unique.
 For  example,  I  mean,  we  tried  a  kind  of  elixir  on  one  of  our  previous  podcasts,  which  one  of  the  things  we  talked  about  when  we  were  drinking,  drinking  it,  is  you  go  into  it  with  zero  expectations  because  you're  not  comparing  it to  a  previous  experience  or  a  previous  beer  or  a  previous  wine.  And  you  come  out  of  it  being  like,  just  simply  this  is  a  good  product.  And  if  I  tried  say  one  of  these,  if  they  weren't  even  called  alcohol  free  beers,  but  I  just  tried  one  of  these  and  enjoyed  it  and  said,  oh,  this  tastes  delicious.  Like  maybe  I  would  be  less  inclined  to  have  a  negative  connotation  towards  it  being  alcohol  free/ 

Aaron: As  you  say  that, Chris, like, it  kind  reminds  me  of  when  the  first  gluten  free  products  were  hitting  the  market  too.  I  kind  of  feel  like  there  was  a  stigma  and  they  were  just  assumed  to  be  bad.  Because  they're  missing  something. But like now  there's  great  gluten  free  products.  It  just  takes  a  while  for  people  to  figure  it  out.

Fiona: Well,  what  this  actually  arises  is  our  cultural  value  placed  on  alcohol,  not  so  much  the  beverage.  So  we  perceive  alcohol  by  ways  of  exceptional  marketing  to  believe  that  drinking  alcohol  is  the  superior  experience  over  not  drinking  alcohol.  That's  why  we  have  them.

Aaron: You  can't  just  have a  soda,  it's  a  rum  and  soda  or anything.

Fiona: Yeah.  Or  that's  why  down  the  stream,  just  drinking  a  juice  or  a  carbonated  beverage  when  you  go  out  for  drinks  is  not  as  cool  as  drinking  an  alcoholic  beverage  and  why  people  kind  of  poke  fun  at  the  person  who's  not  drinking  that  night.  They  are  still  drinking  something.  You  just  perceive  them  to  be  drinking  something  of  less  value.

Aaron: The  good  time  drink. 

Fiona: Right.  Yeah.  So  alcohol  companies  have  done  wonders  for  creating  a  vision  for  alcohol.  That's  partially  true  and  a  lot  untrue.  I  mean,  if  you  look  at  actually  what  the  scene  is  that  you  see  when  you  look  at  an  (inaudible)   ad,  you'll  see  the  beautifully  dressed  people,  you'll  see  the  wonderful  sunshine  or  the  greatly  dressed  up  table.

Aaron: I've  yet  to  have  a  yacht  arrive  outside  my  place  when  I've  been  drinking. 

Fiona: We're  all  in  bikinis,  right?  We  all-

Chris: Maybe  you're  just  drinking  the  wrong  thing.

Fiona: We're all cheersing,  but  there's  never,  ever  in  the  history  of  alcohol,  been  a  scene  shown  of  the  person  hung  over  in  bed  or  puking  after  drinking  too  much  of  that  whiskey  or  whatever  that  rum  or  getting  into  a  fight  with  their  spouse.  I  mean,  we've  pushed  that  into  comedy.  We've  pushed  that  into  film  and  TV,  but  those  brands  are  not  owning  that  scene.  But  that's  partially  true,  if  not  more  true  than  the  yacht  with  the  bikini  and  the  blah,  blah,  blah.  Right? 

Chris: Yeah. 

Fiona: So  they've  done  a  great  job  at  selling  it  to  us.

Chris: That's  interesting  how  you  say  all  of  those  obvious  negatives  of  it  have  not  been  seen  as  negatives  by  society.  They  have  been  seen  as  essentially  comedic  effect,  right?  Like  so  many  people  have  had  nights  out  where  they've  gone  almost  blackout  drunk,  if  not  blackout  drunk,  thrown  up,  done  something  stupid,  and  then you get  made  fun  of,  and  it's  like-

Aaron: We  all  laugh  at  that  guy  the  next day.

Chris: Yeah.  It's  so  much  more  like,  it  kind  of  has  like  a  slapstick  comedic  feel  before  it  has  any  sort  of  serious  feel  to  it.  And  it  makes  it  so  much  easier  to  just  go  back  and  do  that  again,  because  there  is  that  support  and  acceptance  from  society  of  those  actions  and  that  scene  that  happened.  But  yeah,  I  was  going  to  say like  the  contrast  between  ads  and  then  just  like,  I  mean, I haven't  been  down  there  for  quite  a  while,  but  what  a  Saturday  night  on  Grounds  street  looks  like  at  two  in  the  morning,  just  madness.

Luke: But  that  goes  back to  kind  of  what  you've  mentioned  has  been  ingrained  in  our  culture.  And  in  advertising  and  in  film  and  in  TV  like,  if  you're  not  having  it,  you're  missing  out  on  the  good  time.   Or  you're  not  creating  those  stories  that  you  can  tell  the  next  day  to  your  friends  and  have  a  laugh  about.  Like  it  is  odd  that  is  what  gets  celebrated  and  often  encourages  people  to  keep  doing  it.

Fiona: And  not  to  go  down  into  the  underbelly  of  it,  but  to  touch  on  it.  If  you  are  using  alcohol  to  cope  with  social  anxiety  or  depression  or  lack  a  lackluster  life,  and  someone  else  is  not  joining  you  in  that  coping  mechanism,  you  desperately  want  them  to,  because  it  makes  you  feel  better.  It  makes  you  feel  more  normalized  in  your  choice  to  use  alcohol  to  do  that.  So  we're  grasping  at  the  comradery  of  drinking  to  cope  while  not  recognizing  our  own  relationship  with  alcohol,  that's  actually  problematic.  Then  we,  then  we  use  comedy  to  make  fun  of  people,  which  is  wildly  accepted  for  me,  at  least  it  was  experience  of  being  guilted  into  drinking  for  a  long  time,  even  though  I  didn't  want  to.  And  I  would  fake  it  at  bars  all  the  time  with  water  shots  and  beautiful  looking,  not  I'll  call  it  cocktails  by  bartenders  that  knew  the  secret,  but  would  my  friend  just  to  avoid  the  mockery  from  people  and,  or  just  the  pressure,  even  if  they  weren't  mocking  me  just  the  pressure  to  drink.  And  I  didn't  want  to.

Luke: Because  that's  not  fun  for,  for  anybody.  Right?

Fiona: Right.  No. 

Luke: Yeah.  And  hopefully-

Fiona: It's  so  un- inclusive.

Chris: Absolutely.

Aaron: Nine  times out of 10,  you  never  have  fun  when  you're  pressured  into  something.

Fiona: Totally.

Chris: Yeah. 

Fiona: Yeah.  I'd  love  to  see  a  world  where  we  go  out  and  it's  not  assumed  that  you  are  drinking  alcohol and  it's  an  inclusive  environment  that  invites  everyone  to  have  choice.  And  that  includes  folks  that  are  known  to  regularly  drink  alcohol,  to  take  a  night  off  and  not  feel  the  pressure  to  uphold  their  old  image  and  to  create  a  new  image  for  themselves  because  there's  ample  opportunity  to  find  joy  in  not  drinking.  There's  ample  opportunity  to  find  your  innate  expression  of  joy  in  not  drinking  alcohol.

Aaron: It's  completely  fine  to  do  so.  And  it's  not  like  we  have  to  kill  a  puppy  if  you  don't  have  a  drink  when  you  go  out.  So  yeah.

Fiona: Yeah. 

Luke: Yeah.  I  mean,  I  think  it  to  nudge  people  in  that  direction  and  feeling  okay  to  not  have  an  alcoholic  drink, and  it  starts  with  having  to  have  other  options.  Because  if  you're  going  out  with  people  and  you're  saying,  you're  telling  yourself,  I'm  not  going  to  have  a  beverage  tonight.  And  then  you  get  to  the  place  where  everyone's  going  to  have  drinks  and  they've  got  zero  non- alcoholic  options  and  it's  pretty  much  I'm  having  soda  or  I'm  having  water.  Well,  then  it  becomes  a  pretty  tough  decision  for,  I  think  said  individual,  but  if  you're  actually-

Aaron: Because we  got  water  at  home.

Luke: Exactly.  But  if  you  have  solid  non- alcoholic  beer  options  or,  I  mean,  one  thing  I've  seen  a  lot  more  at  restaurants  now  is  a  lot  of  effort  actually  put  into  like  a  curated  mocktail  list.  And  you  know,  I,  myself  don't  even  really  notice  that  much  because  I  definitely  lean  towards  having  an  alcoholic  drink  if  I'm  going  out.  But  my  wife,  Sabrina,  she  doesn't  drink  a  ton  and  we  have  friends  that  also  don't  drink  a  ton.  So  like  they  are  looking  at  those  lists  and  then  I'll  take  a  sip  of  her  drink. I'll be  like,  wow,  that's  actually,  that's  good.  Like  that's  a  really  good  cocktail  without  the  alcohol.  So  there  are  places  that  are  doing  it,  but  I  feel  like it's  still  pretty  early,  like  in  that  kind  of  world  of  this  becoming  mainstream.

Aaron: I've  been  noticing  a  lot  more  places  that  have  non- alcoholic  beer  and  done  been  more  non- alcoholic  options  other  than  kombucha. 

Fiona: We  sell  a  ton  of  spirits.  It's  a  big  part  of  our  business.  The  non- alcoholic  kind,  both  wholesale  to  restaurants  and  bars  and  cafes  and  the  customers.

Luke: Fiona,  what's  your  opinion  on  like,  Vancouver's,  non- alcoholic  like  cocktail  scene  and  like  where  are  there  any  places  you  would  recommend  that  are  doing a  really  good  job.

Fiona: Yeah. 

Luke: Do  you  think  there's  enough  options  out  there  for,  kind  of  at  this  stage  in  the,  I  don't  know  if  we  want be weird  to  call  it  like  a  Renaissance  of  non- alcoholic  product?

Fiona: Yeah.  I  like  that  a  lot,  for  sure.

Luke: Do  you  think  we're  at  a  good  stage  in  Vancouver  and  it's  kind  of  growing  in  a  direction  and  a  pace  that's  satisfying  or  to  see?  Or do  you  kind  of  see  some  pretty  big  holes  in  gaps  that  you  wish  were  filled?

Fiona: Yeah.  I  mean,  if  you,  if  you  went  around  and  did  a  survey  of  the  number  of  restaurants  that  have  an  integrated  non- alcoholic  cocktail  menu  with  their  cocktail  menu,  it's  very  low  for  a  long  time.  People  have  had  mocktails  that  are  maybe  like  a  lime  and  soda  bitters  kind  of  option,  or  like  a  fruit  mixer  and  some  some  bubbly  they've  kind  of  just  lightly  departed  from  the  Shirley  Temple  and  called  it  something  else.  Which  is  super  sad,  because  that's  the  '90s,  folks,  let's  get  on  board.  But  I'm  kind  of  in  the  bubbles.  So  I  don't  go  to  places  anymore  that  don't  really  have  great  options.  So  I  could  list  off  a  bunch  of  places  for  you.  And  we  have  them  on  our  website  where  you  can  find  products  or  restaurants  that  carry  our  products.  So  Nemesis  cafe,  if  you  go  to  their  dinner  series,  you  can  get  wine  and  beer  from  us.  If  you go to  Night  Shade  and  restaurant,  they're  a  new  plant  based  upscale  restaurant.  They  do  an  exceptional  cocktail  menu. 
 There's  a  new  sushi  bar  that  just  opened  up  in  Grandville  Island  that  carries  a  lot  of  our  stuff.  Surac  on  Main  street  carries  our  stuff  from  wine  and  liquor.  And  they  have  an  amazing  cocktail  bar  too.   it's  interesting,  I  talk  to  a  lot  of...  I'm  a  previous  restaurant  owner  as  well,  and  I  love  talking  to  bartenders  and  people  that  kind  of  come  up  with  bar  menus  and  the  interview  process  for  a  new  bartender  is  to  ask  them  to  make  a  good  non- alcoholic  cocktail.  That's  how  if  they're  a  good  bartender,  because  it's  very  hard.  It's  very  easy  to  put  a  splash  of  any  spirit  and  a  bit  of  mixer  in  a  class  and  call  it  a  cocktail.  It's  not  when  you're  working  with a  product  that  needs  craftmanship.  So  that's  the  test.

Aaron: Alcohol  does  conceal  a  lot  in  drink.

Luke: I'm  kind  of  curious.  Do  you  think  like  what  is  it  going  to  take  to,  I  guess,  move  the  needle  and  see  more  bars  and  restaurants  start  to  offer  more  diverse  non- alcoholic  cocktail,  beer,  wine  kind  of  line?  Do  you  see  that  needing  to  come  from  the  restaurants  and  bars  themselves?  Or  do  you  think  it's  also  part  on  consumers  asking  for  it  and  talking  to  the  bartender,  talking  to  servers  and  saying  why  don't  you  have  this?  This  is  something  that  I'm  interested  in. I  would  pay  for.  Or  is  it  kind  of  a  mix  of  both?  And  then  even,  I  mean,  yourself  on  the  like  distributor  side  talking  to  restaurants  and  obviously  trying  to  get  your  products  into  these  restaurants  and  bars,  is  it  kind  of  the  trifecta  of  every  everyone  having  to  have  that  discussion to get  to  a  better  place?

Fiona: Yeah.  It  certainly  makes  my  job  easier  if  someone  and  a  bunch  of  people  have  been  chirping  at  a  bar  for  a  while  and  I  finally  come  along  and  say, " Hey,  do  you  feel  like  you  want a..." and  they're  like,  yes,  finally  someone's  arrived.  I  can  answer  all  my  customer's  needs  because  I  knew  that  if  I  did  none  of  the  customer  education  and  I  came  up  to  a  bar  and  they  said,  no,  no  one's  ever  asked,  then  they're  not  going  to  want  to  pull  the  product  in.  No  one  wants  to  pay  for  it.  No  one  wants  to  make  a  new  menu.  No  one  wants  to  have  storage  of  a  product.  That's  not  moving.  Restaurant  space  is  very  expensive  and  very  valuable.  So  why  would  they  take  up  a  product  that's  not  being  asked  for?  So  certainly  makes  my  job  easier  to  first  reach  consumers  and  then  make  them  go  do  the  asking.
 And  I'll  just  show  up  at  the  end  and  with  the  magic  list  of  product that  they  could  buy.  Having  conversations  like  this.  This  is  the  way  that  you  are  asking  questions  and  the  way  that  you're,  I  can  see  little  light  bulbs  going  off  about  certain  things  that  we've  never  maybe  looked  at  before  together.  I  have  a  feeling  that  after  this  conversation,  you'll  probably  go  on  to  the  next  one  and  drop  a  couple  notes  that  we  talked  about  today  and  that  will  change  that  person's  opinion  potentially.  And  then  it  kind  of  unfolds  from  there.  That's  my  belief.  But  I  sit  in,  I  truly  believe,  in  education  and  this  goes  back  to  where  me  and  Aaron  first  met  is  these  long  form  media  conversations  are  really  deeply  and  powerful.

Aaron: I don't think  I  actually  mentioned  that.  Yeah.  We've  worked  on  a  podcast.  That's  something  we  first  originally  met.  Yeah.

Fiona: That's  how  we  first  met  actually  was  on  a  podcast  producing  together.  I  think  those  conversations,  these  make  a  difference.  So  I  tend  to  have  a  lot  of  these  and  see  a  lot  of  people  impacted  by  them.

Aaron: And  it's  just  awareness  too,  because  I've  had  to  ask  the  staff  because  like  you  said,  like  printing,  printing,  new  menus.  Like  I  look  and  there's  like  no  options,  but  then  I  ask  somebody and they're like, oh  yeah,  we  got  this  in  the  back  and  pull  it  out.  I  was  in  a  bar  downtown  and it had this  big  U  shaped  bar.  And  they  brought  me  the  non- alcoholic  beer  poured  in  glass  and  I  kept  the  can  there.  And  I  just  noticed  everybody  was  looking  at  me  and  they're  just  like,  oh,  what's  that?  And  they  started  asking  the  bartender  and  then  within  a  half  hour,  there's  at  least  30  seats  around  this  U  and  I'd  say  10  people  had  the  non- alcoholic  beer  that  I  was  having.  So  I  think  it's  just  awareness  and  exposure.  And  some  of  them  actually  ordered  a  few  more  rounds  of  the  non  alcoholic  beer.

Fiona: Nice.

Luke: So Aaron, you're just a  taste  maker. 

Chris: Like you  just  got  accepted  buddy.

Fiona: You're  an  influencer.

Luke: You got that clothing. 

Aaron: Yeah. 

Chris: Oh,  it's  that  guy.  He  knows  the good stuff.

Fiona: Well,  that's  a  really,  if  they  were  drinking  foolproof  before-

Aaron: Yeah.  They  were.  Yeah.

Fiona: Well it's  so  nice  to  be  able  to  have  one  foolproof,  one  zero.  One  full,  one  zero  and  come  out  only  having  two  rounds  of  alcohol,  but  you  had  four  delicious  beers.  That's  a  great  evening.  If  you  ask  me. 

Luke: That's  a  great  point  too,  because  we  feel  like  we've  kind  of  chatted  about  either  drinking  or  not  drinking  and  it  doesn't  have  to  be  like that. Like  exactly.  You  could-

Aaron: It's  not  all  one  of  all  the  other,  yeah.

Luke: I've  definitely  had  nights  where  I've  had  four  beers  and  the  last  one  I  was  like, I don't think I've really...  I  just  wanted  something  to  drink  because  everybody's  standing  around  with  something and you don't-

Aaron: But  you  don't  want  to  be  standing  there  with  nothing  in  your  hand  at  the  same  time. 

Luke: Yeah. 

Chris: Luke,  are  you  maybe  speaking  to  go  big  or  go  home  episode? 

Luke: Yeah,  absolutely.

Aaron: Go  back  in  the  archives  and  listen  to  that.  That  was a lot of  fun.  Well,  I  mean,  it  was  fun  at  the  time. It was a-

Luke: Oh  it  was  really  fun  at  the  time.  But  mixing  in-

Chris: A  couple  non  alcoholic  in  between-

Luke: May  have  helped  us  out a little bit  there.

Fiona: Well,  ultimately  we  all  just  want  to  wake  up  and  feel  good,  right?

Chris: Yes,  exactly. 

Fiona: We  don't  want  one  night  to  ruin  the  next  day.  That's  the  goal. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Luke: Maybe  there  doesn't  have  to  be  teams,  right?  It's  not-

Chris: We're  drinking,  you're  not  sort  of  thing. 

Fiona: No,  I  know. 

Chris: Like  we're  all  in  this  together  and  we're all,  I  mean,  I  think  it's  important  to like  what  we  touched  on.  Like  if  you're  drinking  to  cope  with  certain  things,  you're  looking  for  others  to  support  you  in  that  by  doing  the  same  thing.  But  maybe  that  support  needs  to  happen  in  a  different  fashion.  And  that  needs  to  include  open  conversations  and  the  acceptance  of  either  doing  half,  half  or  all  one,  one  night  or  all  the  other,  whatever,  but  just  kind  of  that  support  and  awareness  of  what  you're  doing.  And  like  you  touched  on,  Fiona,  your  relationships  with  alcohol  and  then  also  with  the  people  in  your  life  with  alcohol  included  in  those.  And  how  is  that  shaping  your  life  and  is  that  shaping  it  into  to  what  you  want  it  to  be?

Aaron: And  yeah,  at  the  end  of  it,  we're  not  saying  don't  have  fun.  Don't  enjoy  yourself.  But  there  are  options  for  you  to  be  healthy  and  still  enjoy  yourself  as  well.

Fiona: I  really  hope,  I  think  people  will  see  how  fun  they  actually  can  be  without  the  alcohol.  That  to  me  is  like  true  next  level  empowerment. 

Aaron: Yeah.  That  uncle  at  the  wedding  will  actually  be  a  good  dancer  instead  of  thinking  he's  a  good  dancer. 

Luke: And  it's  fun  too.  Like  from  somebody  that  like,  I  drink  alcohol,  but  last  year,  geez,  I  guess  almost  a  year  and  a  half  ago  now  when  my  wife  was  pregnant  with  our  now  nine  month  old  daughter.  We  have  a  nice  little  mid- century  tea  bar  cabinet  in  our  living  room.  And  we  kind  of  pride  ourselves  on  these  little  Christmas  cocktail  parties  that  we  used  to  do  a  few  years  back. I have  a  good  friend  that's  really  into  cocktail  making  and  we  would  kind  of  get  together  and  put  a  little  menu  together.  So  we  have  kind  of  a  little  cocktail  culture  in  our  sort  of  family  and  circle.  But  when  she  was  pregnant,  we  started  making  some  non- alcoholic  options  for  cocktails.  And  we  bought  some Lumette  and  some  seed  lip  and  started  kind  of  going  into  those  options  for  her  sake.
 But  her  sake  turned  into  my  sake  too.  And  we  both  enjoyed  those.  And  I  kind  of  made  variations  on  cocktails  where  I  just  kind  of  subbed  out  the  gin  for  the  Lumette  at  the  time.  And  like  that  stuff  is  good and it's not,  and I  think  we  chatted  about  this  couple  podcasts  ago,  and  Chris  you  touched  on  it  now,  too,  but  like  you  don't  necessarily  have to,  and  it's  easier  with  spirits,  I  think,  but  you  don't  have  to  compare  it  to  gin.  You  don't  have  to  compare  it  to  vodka.  It  can  just  be  what  it  is  too.  And  if  maybe  if  you  take  that  expectation  off  of  it,  there's  some  potential  to  maybe  look  at  it  in  a  different  light  and  increase  that  enjoyment  with  it  as  well.  And  I  must  say like, we made  some  pretty  tasty  cocktails  and  she  definitely  enjoyed  them. And  I  definitely  had  a  few  as  well  and  enjoyed  them  likewise.

Fiona: Go  you.  Look at you, you  already  know  more  than  I  do.

Aaron: Well,  I  mean,  that  was  a  lot  of  wisdom.  You  did  jump  on  us,  but  I  think  it  is  time  for  the  actual  segment  of  Luke's  moments  of  wisdom.  So  Luke,  this  week,  what is your moment of wisdom?

Luke: My  Wednesday  word  of  wisdom,  I  guess  today  would  be,  pardon  the  alliteration,  watch  out  for  the  weight  of  water  probably.  I  had  a  friend  over  last  weekend  and  my  wife  had  just  gone  to  value  village  and  she  bought  a  bag  of  like  little  building  blocks,  like  the  plastic  ones,  like  the  big,  essentially  big  Lego.  And  they  came  in  a  bag  and it was  probably  like  a  reusable  shopping  bag's  worth.  And  she was like, oh, I'm  just  going  to  give  these  a  quick  rinse  before  we  give  them  to  our  daughter.  So  she  pulled  out  like  a  laundry  basket,  but  one  that  doesn't  have  holes  in  the  sides.  It's  just  like  a  solid  laundry  basket.  And  it's  got  two  little  handles  on  it  and  she  filled  it  with  water  and  dumped  those  blocks  in  there.  It  was  quite  a  nice  day  out,  I  think.
 And  she  was  going  to  go  kind  of  rinse  them  off  on  the  patio.  So  she  asked  said  friend  to  bring  him  over  to  the  patio.  And  as  he  lifted  it,  the  handles  ripped  off  and  we  ended  up  with  about  30  or  40  liters  of  water,  just  kind  of  racing  through  our  hallway,  in  our  apartment,  through  the  hardwood  floor.  So we were  all  scrambling  and  panicking. 

Chris: Doesn't  sound  like it  doesn't  sound  like  it  was  the  friend's  fault  though.  Not  like  I'm  speaking  from  experience,  but  doesn't  sound  like.  It  sounds  like  he  was just trying to  like  lend  a  hand. 

Luke: I  think  (inaudible) ,  yeah,  I  think  the  friend  should  have  known  to  lift  from  the  bottom.  I  think  the  friend  should  have  been  (inaudible)   the  handles. 

Chris: I  think  if  the  friend  had  had  a  few  non- alcoholic  beers  prior,  he  may  have  thought  through  the  lifting  technique  a  little  more  thoroughly.

Fiona: So  the  metaphor  here  is...

Chris: Don't  drink  before  cleaning  your  mega  blocks  is  kind  of  like  the  big  takeaway  today. 

Luke: Water's  heavy.

Chris: I  will  say  watching  Luke  and  Brooke  react  to  this  water,  kind  of  just  flowing  throughout  the  entire  apartment  was  quite  the  experience.  Because  I  kind  of  just  stood  there,  like  did  this  actually  just  break  and  like,  oh  God,  this  is  bad.  And  within  like  two  seconds,  I  had  an  entire  closet  worth  of  towels  thrown  in  my  direction.  Like  the  response  time.  I  don't  know  if  you  guys  are,  if  Luke  and  Brooke  are  practicing  their  earthquake  response  or  earthquake  drills  or  what,  but  they  just  went  into  like,  they  knew  what  do  immediately.  And  within  like  two  minutes,  I  think  Luke  had  unscrewed  all of  the  baseboards  in  the  house.  He  had  the  washing  machine  ripped  out  from  underneath.  They  were  looking  for  any  minor  beak.  I  now  know  all  the  details  about  the  concrete  that  were  under  the  flooring  and  how  it  will  be  fine.  It  was  quite  the-

Fiona: You  were  apocalypse  ready.

Chris: They  were  totally  ready.  I  felt  so  unprepared  in  life.  After  watching  that,  I'm  like,  if  I  spill  this  amount,  I'm  just  moving.  Just  leave.  I'm  walking  out,  handing  the  key  to  my  building  manager  and  just  saying,  you  know  what?  It's  just  not  working  out anymore.

Fiona: No, I'm out.

Aaron: Had a good run. I'm going to start a new life in a new apartment.

Chris: Yeah. I've got  like  the  stick  with  like a  little  pillow  case  with  a  couple  pairs  of  (inaudible) . 

Fiona: No  underwear,  just  left  with  the  essentials.

Chris: Yeah.  Yep. Yep.

Fiona: Oh  my  goodness.  That  was  a  funny  story.  Well  done,  Chris,  now  that  we  know  it  was  you. 

Luke: Needless to say  those  were  not  cleaned  on  the  patio,  those  were  brought  to,  I  think  the  bathtub,  for  we  realize  afterwards  that  we  have  a  bathtub  we  can  do  this  in. 

Fiona: Yeah.

Luke: Instead  of  the-

Aaron: (inaudible)  did Chris also lift  the  bathtub?

Luke: Sorry?

Chris: I  said,  I  was also asked  to  leave.

Aaron: No,  I  was  asking,  was  Chris  asked  to  lift  the  bathtub?

Luke: No,  we  knew  what  he  was  capable  of  after  that.  Yeah.  All  jokes  aside,  Chris,  I  think  we  set  you  up  for  failure  with  that  handle.  I  inspected  it  after,  I'm  like,  oh  my  God,  these  things.  They  were  already  cracked.  Because  we  have  another  one  of  those  laundry  baskets  and  it's  just  hanging  on  by  a  thread  as  well.  And  that  one's  only  had  like  socks  and  dirty  underwear  in  it. 

Aaron: How  heavy are these blocks-

Luke: 400  pounds  of  water. 

Fiona: Just  wear  and  tear-

Luke: Plastic  just  disintegrates.

Aaron: Thank  you, Fiona, for being our guest today  and  providing  the  beverages.  I  will  say  I've  gotten  into  this  stout  here  and  this  stout  is-

Luke: It's  nice. 

Aaron: ...  pretty  bloody  fantastic. 

Fiona: I'm glad you like that. 

Luke: Yeah. Thank you very much.  I'm  looking  forward  to  my  morning  beer  tomorrow.

Fiona: You  can  take  it  in  the  car  with  you  if  you'd  like.

Luke: Yeah.

Chris: Luke,  even  with  a  non- alcoholic  beer,  I  feel  like  that's  a  weird  hump  to  get  over.  Just  like  cracking  it and  like  plugging  in,  firing  off  your  morning  podcast  for  the  commute  and  just  cracking a non- alcoholic  stout.  Like  that's  a  mental  barrier  I  feel  like  you'd  still  have  to  get  over. 

Luke: Well,  I'm  working  from  home  tomorrow,  so  it  doesn't  have  to  happen  on  the  sky  train  or  anything. 

Chris: We  might  have  to  start  morning  happy  hour  though,  Luke.  Little  8: 00  AM. 

Luke: Should  we  do  it  on  Zoom? 

Chris: If  it's  just  us  two,  I  feel  like  it  might  go  okay.  Not  like  30  other  people.

Fiona: You  can  just  ping  pong  back  and  forth  with  each  other's  vulnerable  stories.

Chris: Exactly.

Aaron: All  right.  Fiona, where can the  people  go  to  get  the  beverages  that we  talked  about and  wine  and  spirits  and  all  that?

Fiona: Yeah.  They can go to sansorium.com, S-A-N-S-O-R- I- U- M  dot  com.  And  find  us  on Instagram at  Sansorium.  And  you  will  be  able  to  follow  along  when  we  launch  new  products  or  events,  which  are  always  really  fun.

Aaron: Get  on  the  events  early  because-

Fiona: They  sell  out  quickly.

Aaron: Yeah. 

Fiona: And  I  tend  to  dabble  on  Twitter  and  TikTok  sometimes  if  you  frequent  those  spaces.  And  that  is  it.

Aaron: All right. 

Chris: Thanks so much for,  for  the  beers  and  crash  course  in  the  industry.  I feel like I  learned  a  lot  today.

Luke: Yeah.  It  was a  great  conversation.

Aaron: It's nice  when  we  bring  people  on  who  know  things.  I  mean,  we  need  to  redo  that  coffee  episode.

Luke: Oh  my  God.  Yeah.

Chris: Imagine if we tried  to  do  this  episode  just  ourselves.

Aaron: Oh  yeah. 

Chris: So  I  mean,  you  lost  me  at  what  was  the  something  tunnel  centrifusion.  Like  if  we  started  talking  about  centrifusion  here,  we  would've  lost  some  people,  even  the  (inaudible)   listeners  would  have  tuned  out  by  then. 

Aaron: And then  they  get  the  alcohol  out?  They just go bipity,  bopity,  boo  and  it's  gone.

Fiona: Thanks  for  having  me. It was  really  a  pleasure  talking  to  you.

Chris: Cheers.  Likewise.